Lia, I respectfully disagree. Trump trying to protect us? Tell that to the 200,000 COVID dead. A bit of truth could have saved many of these poor people but Trump had his eye more on the stock market.

Also what good is to accuse the other side of lying when we are lying on our side too? Anyone following Trump long enough will discover too many lies, it just leaves your head spinning. How can your Christian self stomach all this with a straight face yet hypocritically get angry with the other side for lying? Is this what we mean by serving God? It gets bizarre when sometimes it is the unbelievers telling the truth when we believers cover it up. As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

I entirely understand and sympathize when many in the unbelieving world (plus the liberals etc all whom I love) get puzzled at us when we defend and deny Trump’s dishonesty. It harms our witness when we lie just like the world, how will we witness to them? About corrupt or lying governments, ALL GOVERNMENTS LIE (and do evil) but nothing in living memory comes close to the Trump government.

To be clear, I pray for Trump but I am more concerned about his salvation than in him or Christians holding government as “what does it profit a man to gain the whole world (eg political power) and yet lose his soul?” Also, no earthly government, not even America, can be godly (esp now in a democracy which allows a diversity of faiths or no faith). Jesus said, “my kingdom is not of this world” and we also always pray, “may your kingdom come” because it something which GOD himself will do at an appointed future time (the rock in Daniel’s dream which smashed the statue and became the sole power over the whole earth, overcoming all human governments. It WAS cut off from the mountain, “without human hands”, meaning God will do it himself, not us whether thru voting, etc).

The belief that Christians need to take government (white house, supreme court, congress) for godliness to prevail is not biblical. Instead of this bringing the world closer to the church, it will bring the church closer to the world. (the world stands for corruption) Jesus and his apostles didn’t have any presence in Caeser’s throne, Herod’s palace, Roman’s courts, etc, and yet stunned the world with the biggest victory with the church beating all odds WITH NO POLITICAL POWER.

I don’t say that we Christians retreat from government or politics. Just don’t sell this lying spin that you are bringing in a godly government that doesn’t/can’t lie or that it is only your opponents who lie. Believe me, the church does not need a Trump win to be fulfilled in any way.

I wouldn’t even be surprised if Trump lost big, which is actually what he needs more than anything to discover personal humility and probably a chance at repentance. Winning at politics isn’t necessarily winning based on heaven’s reckoning. Let us see things from a heavenly, not worldly perspective.

Thanks Mary,

actually, None of these governments (Biden or trump) represents a godly option. By voting, you are only choosing between the lesser of two evils. Which evil is greater or lesser is a matter of debate between different people. We have already seen how lying can cost lives in the case of Trump and the COVID pandemic.

So I guess it is ok to choose someone who lies so that Israel can be defended and abortion opposed.

Either way, liberal or conservative, you wind up with something evil. Remember lying is no laughing matter, it is deadly, it is why satan is said to be the father of all lies.

Christian Trump supporters have been rightly accused of seeking a transactional relationship with Trump where they look the other way concerning his immoralities in exchange for their interests like supreme court judges or Israel policy.

What does it communicate to the world about us? And since when did dishonesty become an acceptable way of advancing God’s kingdom?

You should not be surprised that after the supposed victory event at the Rose Garden where some Christians celebrated Amy Barret as the next judge, that assembly was struck with COVID infection from Trump, his wife, and more than ten others. where is the blessing of God here considering the other side was spared?

Also, let me remind you that there was a government in place (roman empire) when Jesus and the apostles were on earth. Was it ungodly? Yes, thru its actions and evil laws. (probably comparable to abortion etc). Yet Jesus recognized it by supporting the payment of taxes to it. (give unto to caeser)

This wasn’t because JESUS supported the evil or immorality of that government. IT was because changing the government (to bring its laws in line with Christianity) wasn’t the solution to correcting ungodliness. Godliness is about changing your heart, not changing the laws of the country. And in fact, no matter how much you change the laws, Jesus said, “my kingdom is not of this world”.

It is ok if you want to vote for Trump in order to kill pro abortion laws etc. It is not a sin, same to the other side who are preventing other evils. However, by your vote, just don’t pretend you are advancing God’s government. Or assert that your opponent on the other side is the evil one. Because whatever you choose, it will still be tainted.

By the way, if it was possible for us to come up with a godly government, then we can save ourselves. We won’t need GOD to save us. Thankfully GOD says its impossible.

So he has allowed us to have our deficient governments for a period, governments which will always fail us so we can learn he is the only one with the solution.

Then he himself will set up His kingdom which will overthrow all others. (see Daniel’s dream where the stone struck the statue and grew to fill the earth. This is God’s kingdom, the statue stands for human kingdoms). Note he says this stone is cut from the mountain without human hands, so no human has involved in installing this kingdom. Are you looking for GOD’s government?

Don’t look to the American government or other for that but wait patiently with the prayer he taught us, “may your kingdom come.”

I leave you with peace, Mary.GOD bless you.

Hi Michael,

You pull out data here which simply ignores the reality out there.

You say suicide is a worse crisis than Covid 19 but when was the last time suicides (or the simple flu) caused recession as we now see worldwide?

Also more than 1 million worldwide people have died of covid (and still counting)

(BTW 48,344 suicides occurred in US in 2020 and 1 million globally. Suicides however is not contagious like covid which makes covid deadlier in terms of its capacity to escalate with time)

When you have 210,000 dead of Covid at this point which Dr Fauci could spiral to 400,000 by January, that’s really really terrible.

No way you can spin this as trivial. 210,000 is more than 50 times the dead in Sept 11 and we all remember how traumatic that was for both America and the world .

Also as Christians we, should be fair to everyone, even to unbelievers and the mainstream press. Don’t lie about them.

Fact: the press did not hype this pandemic.

Just ask Trump himself as he says in the Woodward tape. He repeated the same things, admitting the dire pandemic in private while telling us the opposite in public.

He said he downplayed it to avoid panic. BTW, when confronted about this dishonesty later, he denied downplaying the pandemic, contradicting what he just said in the tape.

Incredibly he doesnt just lie, he also lies about lying. So the lies pile up on top of each other in a dizzying intricate way.

His own sister, who should know him better than most of us, also decries Trump lying character in a secretly taped conversation.

Also, the press is not the medical experts here. They are merely reporting what government experts/agencies have said, including WHO, CDC, NHS, and members of the president’s task force. They all paint a grim picture, so when the press reports that, how does it become media hype?

Actually isn’t it more responsible to sound the warning?

Also it’s no just the US but the whole world that has been hit.

Trump typically ignores the science and the experts, we should not make the same mistake.

About the Russian spy matter, I have no facts on that. (as believers, we should always be reluctant to say much about unproven things otherwise you may bear false witness against your neighbor, a sin)

However, I have already commented that ALL GOVERNMENTS LIE, to a lesser and greater extent.

Trump’s case however is an outlier in terms of breaking records.

What pains me is when evangelicals err grossly in asserting that the Trump administration never lies (which would make it the first government in American living history to break this record)

This is ridiculous. Even Mike Pence boldly repeated this lie in his debate with Harris. The White House press secretary Kayleigh has also claimed this.

I can’t be bothered much when a worldly government claims it doesnt lie. That is expected of worldly or unbelieving people, they cheat. It’s their nature.

But when a government that claims the credentials of godliness also does the same thing, despite its many lies, that is outrageous and unacceptable.

It also dishonors God’s name in the eyes of the world since they see us lying while also claiming to be godly. This makes it harder to witness to such people.

BTW, I don’t need to read this article to know how to detect a lie (and neither do many Americans)

It only takes a little intelligence and some honesty.

Be blessed Michael and I hope you consider my words.

Hello Richard,

Thanks for this. In response to your comment, please refer to what I told Mary L McClellen in this same thread.

GOD bless you, pastor and chaplain.

Hi melinda,

Thanks, let me respond to your points and please consider them carefully. It is all about the truth, so we should be on the same side if this is also your concern.

1. You say “There was no consensus about the virus in early stages… so nobody was urging change in normal everyday life.”

This is not quite true (despite confusion at the beginning due to ignorance about the virus). Long after public health authorities including CDC, NHIS, WHO, and even Trump’s own COVID task advisors had finally reached consensus about masks, social distancing and other measures, Trump continued to beat back for weeks and weeks on end. If he ever came around, it is as a late convert and even so reluctantly.

He refused to wear masks, ignored social distancing and kept feuding with Dr Fauci concerning these measures.

Even some of his close associates have admitted to this no-mask policy (or other anti covid measures) around the president. See Christie who admitted he was wrong in not wearing a mask and got infected. Also Mitch McConnell who has not visited the White House for months because covid anti measures are not being followed there.

Trump himself proudly admitted to hugging goldstar families with absolutely no covid precautions and no regrets whatsoever about it even today. (he later blames them for his infection!)

2. “Pandemics throughout history (eg 1918)…come to a natural end.”

This was true in the past when we didn’t yet have knowledge on viruses, vaccines or antivirals. So yes, in pre science days pandemics ran their natural course but that often meant millions had to die. Usually the disease ends after killing millions and also after collective immunity in the population develops to stop further spread. Today with our massive knowledge, do we have to go that route?

If you are suggesting that we just let the pandemic run its course and change nothing about our lives, perhaps to get collective immunity, this would be disastrous.

This is what Trump’s preferred covid advisor Dr Scott (who is not an epidemiologist or infectious disease expert) is reported to back (herd immunity). The strategy has been widely rejected with WHO saying “Never in the history of public health has herd immunity been used as a strategy for responding to an outbreak, let alone a pandemic….it is scientifically and ethically problematic,”

Keep in mind also that unlike other pandemics, coronavirus leaves recovered people and even asymptomatics with a host of other conditions possibly for life like heart damage, kidney damage, neurological disorders and more.

3. “Slowing the spread of the virus…prolongs the pandemic.”

Not true. Even you yourself hint otherwise by praising Trump’s travel bans for “limiting the spread of the pandemic.” Also Trump himself suggests that if Biden was in charge, millions could have died (instead of the 200,000 under him), so he is conceding that mitigating steps do help in curbing the pandemic.

We also see different outcomes in different countries based on the responses (or lack or response) they took. Eg New Zealand with more aggressive steps has the best covid situation worldwide and are ahead of everyone in eliminating the virus. They did this through various restrictions including lockdowns which you criticise.

The Prime Minister called it taking steps “ hard and early.” and she was brutally frank and honest with her people. (we haven’t seen secondary deaths you say will result following such measures) You would think that would hurt her politically but the people thanked her by re-electing her yesterday by a landslide. Incidentally, Trump slammed her covid response although hers would be a model while the US is hardly a model.

Furthermore, polls in the US continue to show that the public does not approve or trust Trump in his handling of the pandemic for good reason and it’s the main reason he is trailing in the polls.

4. You say you could “find no statement by Trump that covid 19 will go away like a miracle.”

He said it in February: “It’s going to disappear. One day it’s like a miracle – it will disappear.”

So Trump’s response is generally guided by this thinking which tends to minimize the virus. However, pandemics do not disappear miraculously. They disappear either after collective immunity develops (with possibly heavy casualties, an unacceptable option) or through mitigating steps we take like movement restrictions, avoiding crowds, vaccines and therapeutics.

Recent pandemics like SARS, Ebola ended this way. Remember how African countries had to enact lockdowns and other restrictions finally ending Ebola? Nobody is excited about these steps but either you bite the bullet or bury your head in the sand.

5. You couldn’t find information that Trump said that covid was false media or democratic propaganda.

I didn’t mean that Trump said covid itself was fake news. I was talking about the severity or seriousness of covid. Trump claimed the opposition and fake media was hyping or exaggerating it.

But we now know from the Woodward recording, Trump himself was aware how deadly the virus was, more than seven times than the flu. Yet he intentionally downplayed it, deceiving the public with an opposite message that it was just like the flu.

Also the so-called fake press and the Democrats were merely echoing what the public health authorities were saying in public, not hyping anything. Today with the grim figures of the dead, we now know it’s true and it is dishonest to say anyone was hyping this. We haven’t seen hospitals, resources and personnel this strained on a national scale, Americans themselves agree as polls show it is the top issue on their minds as they prepare to vote.

6. BTW, when you approve the travel bans by Trump, are you not admitting the effectiveness of movement restrictions in curbing the pandemic? So equally local restrictions should surely have the same effect of curbing the pandemic. Obviously this will slow down the economy , but ultimately you can’t fix the economy unless you handle the covid effectively. Otherwise you will still land back to square one. Remember how states that reopened too fast got hit with a resurge that was even worse than before, forcing them to lockdown again?

Even now there is a third surge underway which could force some states to shut down again.

7. I am all for praising God when people recover and successful medicines developed. But does that mean we cannot hold leaders and, specifically Trump accountable for actions they took or failed to take on covid especially when we consider the unnecessary deaths that could have been avoided?

8. Finally, lest you still doubt my misgivings about Trump’s honesty, look at his recent endorsement of QAnon when he retweeted their message saying that Osama was not killed, that it was his double body that was shot and Osama is actually still alive. (apparently, he is undermining Obama who he doesn’t like crediting with anything) The ordinary citizen knows this is an absurd lie, surely the President who has the best intelligence than anyone should know better. Of course he does, so why is he spreading such disinformation? Believers don’t spread false rumours, they condemn them. And is it any wonder many Christians are gravitating towards this group which the FBI has called a domestic terrorist group?

Melinda, I wish you the best and God bless you!

I am humbled. Thank you for your support. Sincerely grateful.